Request ID: FOI-2537-2324 Date published: 07 November 2023
You asked
Follow-up to FOI-2197-2324: Thank you for the reply.
As I said in my request, I do not believe that maximum journey times are adequately explained at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/keep-within-maximum-journey-times and I therefore cannot agree with the assertion that they are. Perhaps if I explain where I believe the information is lacking clarity then the reason for my question will be understood.
The basic premise is simple:
MJT = 60 + 10z minutes
where z is the number of zones crossed, including the start and end stations. For journeys after 19:00 Mon-Fri & all day Sat, add 10; for Sunday, add 20. If this were all that was presented then this would be very clear and there would be no opportunity for misunderstanding.
The lack of clarity is in the section headed "Travelling within Zones 1-4". This section appears to allow extra time for journeys near the centre of London.
The general problem with this section is that a journey which is, for example, "In Zones 2-3" is also "In Zones 1-4 (for journeys across up to five zones within Zones 1-4)". This requires clarification and explanation which would be provided by fulfilling my request.
"In Zone 1 only"
"In Zone 2 only"
These are straightforward.
"In Zones 2-3"
This could be interpreted as a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z3 (or vice versa); or it could be a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z2; or starts in z3 and ends in z3. Any of these three possibilities are "In Zones 2-3". Which is correct?
"In Zone 1-2"
Note it says "In Zone 1-2" not "In Zones 1-2". Is that an error or does it mean something, especially as some stations are zone 1/2? Then, does this refer to a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z2 (or vice versa); or a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z1; or a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z2? Any of these three possibilities are "In Zone 1-2". However, because the last two options would conflict with the straightforward "In Zone 1 only" and "In Zone 2 only" then the first option can be the only correct one. Therefore we may infer that if TfL says "In Zone[s] 1-2" then it means a journey from z1 to z2 (and, presumably, vice versa) not merely in z1 or in z2. Is that inference correct?
"In Zones 1-3"
Using the logic from the previous section then we may infer that this means a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z3 (or vice versa). Is that correct?
"In Zones 1-4 (for journeys across up to five zones within Zones 1-4)"
Because of the phrase in parentheses it may be that this refers to a journey within any of zones 1, 2, 3, & 4 no matter in which of those zones the journey starts and ends; yet all of the above sections are also "In Zones 1-4". Should this section therefore be interpreted as applying to a journey which starts or ends in z4 without having entered any higher-numbered zone and having crossed no more than five zones?
I'm sure you can see that the wording of the section headed "Travelling within Zones 1-4" is open to interpretation and misunderstanding, and my request is to clarify this section.
Given the draconian punishment imposed - not one maximum fare but two - for such a minor infraction as taking a few minutes longer to complete a journey, I believe it is important that TfL is clear and transparent in explaining the maximum journey times. An obvious way of doing this would be to add the MJT to the single fare finder at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder.
In the meantime, I repeat my request that TfL provides the permitted maximum journey time from every station to every other station. This is information which must already be available in the fare charging system otherwise it would not be able to tell when a journey has exceeded that time.
Alternatively, please provide the MJTs for the sample journeys I gave in my request; these will enable me to correctly understand the section "Travelling within Zones 1-4".
I look forward to your reply.
We answered
TfL Ref: FOI-2537-2324
Thank you for your further request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 13th October 2023 asking for information about Maximum Journey Times. Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy.
Specifically you asked the following, further to case reference FOI-2197-2324::
The basic premise is simple: MJT = 60 + 10z minutes where z is the number of zones crossed, including the start and end stations. For journeys after 19:00 Mon-Fri & all day Sat, add 10; for Sunday, add 20. If this were all that was presented then this would be very clear and there would be no opportunity for misunderstanding.
The lack of clarity is in the section headed "Travelling within Zones 1-4". This section appears to allow extra time for journeys near the centre of London.
The general problem with this section is that a journey which is, for example, "In Zones 2-3" is also "In Zones 1-4 (for journeys across up to five zones within Zones 1-4)". This requires clarification and explanation which would be provided by fulfilling my request.
"In Zone 1 only" "In Zone 2 only" These are straightforward.
"In Zones 2-3" This could be interpreted as a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z3 (or vice versa); or it could be a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z2; or starts in z3 and ends in z3. Any of these three possibilities are "In Zones 2-3". Which is correct?
"In Zone 1-2" Note it says "In Zone 1-2" not "In Zones 1-2". Is that an error or does it mean something, especially as some stations are zone 1/2? Then, does this refer to a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z2 (or vice versa); or a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z1; or a journey which starts in z2 and ends in z2? Any of these three possibilities are "In Zone 1-2". However, because the last two options would conflict with the straightforward "In Zone 1 only" and "In Zone 2 only" then the first option can be the only correct one. Therefore we may infer that if TfL says "In Zone[s] 1-2" then it means a journey from z1 to z2 (and, presumably, vice versa) not merely in z1 or in z2. Is that inference correct?
"In Zones 1-3" Using the logic from the previous section then we may infer that this means a journey which starts in z1 and ends in z3 (or vice versa). Is that correct?
"In Zones 1-4 (for journeys across up to five zones within Zones 1-4)" Because of the phrase in parentheses it may be that this refers to a journey within any of zones 1, 2, 3, & 4 no matter in which of those zones the journey starts and ends; yet all of the above sections are also "In Zones 1-4". Should this section therefore be interpreted as applying to a journey which starts or ends in z4 without having entered any higher-numbered zone and having crossed no more than five zones?
I'm sure you can see that the wording of the section headed "Travelling within Zones 1-4" is open to interpretation and misunderstanding, and my request is to clarify this section.
Given the draconian punishment imposed - not one maximum fare but two - for such a minor infraction as taking a few minutes longer to complete a journey, I believe it is important that TfL is clear and transparent in explaining the maximum journey times. An obvious way of doing this would be to add the MJT to the single fare finder at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder.
In the meantime, I repeat my request that TfL provides the permitted maximum journey time from every station to every other station. This is information which must already be available in the fare charging system otherwise it would not be able to tell when a journey has exceeded that time.
Alternatively, please provide the MJTs for the sample journeys I gave in my request; these will enable me to correctly understand the section "Travelling within Zones 1-4".
I can confirm that we hold the information you require. However, I am afraid that information on Maximum Journey Times beyond that already published on our website is exempt from disclosure under section 43(2) of the Freedom of Information, which applies where release of information would prejudice commercial interests. The rationale for this is explained below.
Maximum Journey Times apply to the use of Oyster and Contactless Payment Cards to prevent fraudulent travel and to therefore protect TfL’s revenue collection. There are many settings and policies applied to Pay As You Go (PAYG) travel that are designed to protect revenue and it is very much in the public interest to do so. To declare detail of these settings would negate their purpose. Accordingly, publishing these times in any detail or describing how those times are calculated presents a risk to TfL’s revenue and also to the revenue of the Train Operating Companies that are part of the PAYG arrangements. Revenue is particularly at risk where stations are ungated (and rely on validators) or where gates are in place but are left open. Maximum Journey Time settings are in place to prevent fraudulent activity around these locations where less scrupulous persons could exploit loopholes to make multiple journeys for only one payment. The times allowed for journeys within the PAYG area are set in such a way to be sufficiently generous to allow customers to make their journey under most circumstances, even allowing time for delays, interchanges and so on. Additional time is also permitted for journeys made at weekends to take account of the less frequent services that often apply.
To reassure customers, some indicativetimes are published on the TfL website for journeys wholly within zones 1-6 but these are only a rough guide rather than absolute indication of the time permitted:
Should Maximum Journey Times be exceeded for a valid reason (such as delays on trains, problems validating or engineering works extending journey time), customers can claim a refund. In some cases, where TfL is aware of significant delays on particular routes, there are settings which can be applied which automatically prevent customers being overcharged in the event of exceeding the Maximum Journey Time.
The application of the s43(2) exemption is subject to consideration of the ‘Public Interest Test’, to determine whether the greater public interest rests in the exemption applying or not. We recognise the need for openness and transparency in the operation of our business, and the fact you have requested the information is in itself an argument for release. However, TfL also has a duty to consider the public purse in the operation of our business, given we are largely funded by public money in the form of grants from Government and fares from passengers. In this instance we believe that the greater public interest rests in the exemption applying, to ensure that passengers pay the correct fare and TfL does not lose revenue that is due. This stance is further supported by the fact that, as referenced above, some indicative times and guidance for passengers on this matter are already published on the TfL website.
Please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to appeal.
Yours sincerely,
David Wells FOI Case Officer FOI Case Management Team General Counsel Transport for London
